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Winter Project - coxylaad - 07-06-2019

Quote: Getting the relationship between the ignition timing and the cam/valve timing, first
 

So how is that achieved? I want this to be on the safe side, and I can get the mixture how I want it, but the advance mapping is a bit of a mystery to me.  


Winter Project - fixitsan - 07-06-2019

Quote: 

So how is that achieved? I want this to be on the safe side, and I can get the mixture how I want it, but the advance mapping is a bit of a mystery to me.  
 

Some tuners temporarily fit a knock sensor. But you can hear knock too, so you can still keep advancing until you get knock and then retard a bit.

 

With 97 RON fuel especially 34 degrees will almost certainly be safe. 32 degrees would be safe with 95RON supermarket fuel (just figures based on some experience of my own and what people on tuning forums end up setting theirs too)

 

Manufacturers seem to end up fine tuning the timing in order to create the character of the powerplant suitable for the widest range of riders, it's why we see the low gear torque limiters on many bikes to keep the front end from coming up on a novice rider.

 

I think aswell there are some implications for emissions limits but I haven't looked into that much, but it's certainly easier for manufacturers to tweak a 'global' timing map than it is to start to retune fueling maps when all they're trying to do is make an engine a bit more user friendly.

 

A +4 degree advance kit is available for most bikes, and it's accepted that most bikes can run with at least another 4 degrees of advance safely. If you had an original map you could start just by adding 4 degrees across the board.

 

I'm working away from home a lot recently (Sunderland) but if I get the chance I'll try downloading the map from the Samios ECU and comparing it to the untuned data I already downloaded before sending it off.


Winter Project - coxylaad - 07-06-2019

can you get access to your maps ? that would be a great comparison for me. 

 

I am only about 10 to 15 minutes away from Sunderland, if you were bored after work pop round and I'll show you the setup. 

 

I think I might set a safe max of 32 degrees. I'm not bothered about extracting the maximum power out of the engine, 



Winter Project - fixitsan - 07-06-2019

Quote:can you get access to your maps ? that would be a great comparison for me. 

 

I am only about 10 to 15 minutes away from Sunderland, if you were bored after work pop round and I'll show you the setup. 

 

I think I might set a safe max of 32 degrees. I'm not bothered about extracting the maximum power out of the engine, 
 

 

I'll see what I can do to get the maps out of the ECU. It would be good to get out one evening, but will have to see how it goes on a day by day basis, but I'm there from Mon-Fri


Winter Project - coxylaad - 07-06-2019

much appreciated. I will copy it and see what its like. I wonder how much difference my tuned engine makes to the mapping - the higher compression will probably require less advance. 



Winter Project - fixitsan - 07-06-2019

Quote:much appreciated. I will copy it and see what its like. I wonder how much difference my tuned engine makes to the mapping - the higher compression will probably require less advance. 
 

 

I've got the full ROM from the Samios ECU now... I'll put it through a file comparison program to pick out the differences from the original


Winter Project - wicklamulla - 07-06-2019

this is getting exciting!  i do wonder if some of those TDM 900's that have troublesome snatchy power delivery could be fixed by this kind of tinkering that you guys are doing?



Winter Project - fixitsan - 07-06-2019

I've identified the map locations, but not sure which are fuelling and which are ignition related.

 

I need a file called an 'ECU definition' file to load into a program called 'RomRaider', which will then automagically identify them. I've put a couple of beg/requests for the defintiion file on a couple of boards.


Winter Project - coxylaad - 07-06-2019

You the man!

Winter Project - dandywarhol - 07-06-2019

Back to the older car tuning fixit - full advance was only for economical cruising - whenever load/full throttle was applied the vacuum advance (around 10/12 degrees extra from mid twenty degrees of mechanical advance) was removed, so around 25/30 degrees of advance was the norm under WOT. An interesting post, great to see the old bike back on song again  :badgerrock:



Winter Project - fixitsan - 08-06-2019

Quote:Back to the older car tuning fixit - full advance was only for economical cruising - whenever load/full throttle was applied the vacuum advance (around 10/12 degrees extra from mid twenty degrees of mechanical advance) was removed, so around 25/30 degrees of advance was the norm under WOT. An interesting post, great to see the old bike back on song again  :badgerrock:
 

More than one way to kill a stick to shake at a bird, for sure

 

Centrifugal ignition advance mechanisms work solely on engine revs, the higher the revs the greater the advance, regardless of whether the throttle is WOT , or not. I ran a kz550ltd for a few years which had centrifugal advance, which would sometimes stick and need cleaning up.

 

 

Coxy I'm trying to find someone with the necessary software to extract the ignition table form the Samios remap. There is a good program called 'WinOLS' which shows them roughly but it's all hex data, which although is easily converted to decimal, there is no way of knowing the scaling factor in use, so a value of 'FF' (decimal 255), might mean 100 degrees of advance or it might mean 75 degrees....there is no way of knowing what the limits are at the moment.(and therefore not possible to infer the true value of each piece of data)


Winter Project - fixitsan - 12-06-2019

I'm in Sunderland but I'll be doing long days all week Cozy, doubt I'll have a chance to come visit.

Winter Project - coxylaad - 21-06-2019

update on the project:

 

I traced the random misfire down to a bad earth on the right hand coil.

For some reason I managed to forget to clean off the powder coating where the coil earths to the frame on that side. I think I might have carried out a trial fit of that coil and forgot to remove it. 

 

Anyway the bikes is all sorted. Its proper quick now and has a great spread of usable torque.

 

I am heading up to scotland on it this week so i will provide a full report. 


p.s. I made myself an ignition map based on a map that I managed to pinch from a ktm 990 duke. they run higher compression so it should be safe. 



Winter Project - fixitsan - 21-06-2019

Quote:update on the project:

 

I traced the random misfire down to a bad earth on the right hand coil.

For some reason I managed to forget to clean off the powder coating where the coil earths to the frame on that side. I think I might have carried out a trial fit of that coil and forgot to remove it. 

 

Anyway the bikes is all sorted. Its proper quick now and has a great spread of usable torque.

 

I am heading up to scotland on it this week so i will provide a full report. 



p.s. I made myself an ignition map based on a map that I managed to pinch from a ktm 990 duke. they run higher compression so it should be safe. 
 

 

Excellent. Give me a shout if you're anywhere near the Central Belt and fancy a rest/coffee.


Winter Project - dandywarhol - 23-06-2019

Quote: 

 

Excellent. Give me a shout if you're anywhere near the Central Belt and fancy a rest/coffee.
 

Ditto - it would be good to see the ol' soldier again



Winter Project - coxylaad - 25-06-2019

So i went to bonnie Scotland at the weekend. Sorry guys we did nothing but ride and eat lorn sausage, no down time at all! 
 
Weather was largely dry but very cold. I made the error of choosing my summer leather jacket as it was warm when i was packing my bike, and also it was summer solstice so you would expect decent temperatures. Wrong! the vented stretch panels running up my arms and on the side of my rib cage directed freezing cold air into my armpits. I have never been so cold in my damn life.   I ended up buying a roll of gaffer tape at a garage and taping all the vents up. It was better but definitely not cosy. 
 
The bike was just awesome. So strong now that  on full power the clutch is slipping which ir never used to do, so I will have to sort that out. The bike was flexible enough to allow me to bimble along in top at 2500rpm, and will pull from there strongly right through. I going to make some modifications to the mapping for my own preference. I am going to retard the ignition at the 2 and 5% areas from 2000rpm to 3500rpm, as I can feel it hunting every so slightly. Best to to describe it is it feels like a hoss straining at the leash to take off. I want it to happy content to trott along in that zone, it makes for more pleasant cruising. 
 
The fuel economy was pretty amazing. I was riding with my dad on his street triple R, he likes to fill up every 80 mile for some weird reason, and I was putting at least a litre less fuel in than his bike every time, sometimes quite a bit less.  By my rough calcs I was getting over 60mpg. 
 
So new clutch plates and possibly slightly heavier springs depending on how worn the old clutch plates turn out to be, and little tweaking of the mapping and I am pretty much done!


Winter Project - coxylaad - 25-06-2019

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I think I have sorted Scotlands midgie problem out, there cant be many of them left now.



Winter Project - fixitsan - 25-06-2019

Sounds like a great trip all round !.



Winter Project - dandywarhol - 25-06-2019

Good work - enjoy the bike. a set of plates might just sort it - especially at the leg on it  :pimp:



Winter Project - coxylaad - 26-06-2019

yes that will be the first option, new clutch friction plates.